After a few minutes wait in the Council Chamber, the Minister and the Marquis were conducted to the study of the Secretary of State. The Minister having been introduced was greeted very affably by the Cardinal. The Minister explained the situation at great length, referred particularly to the Con Murphy incident and assured the Cardinal that the Government had ample reason for arresting him (Documents produced showing that Con Murphy's house was distributing centre for Irregular despatches). The Cardinal urged that the telegram sent to the Archbishop of Dublin was in no sense an order. The question of intervening to secure Murphy's release from prison was left entirely to the discretion of the Archbishop. The telegram was occasioned by the great number of wires sent from Ireland and America, all stating that Murphy's imprisonment was due to his visit to Rome.

The Minister went on to explain that the release had taken place before the Government had any knowledge of the telegram to the Archbishop, that in any case the Government, had they desired, could have prevented the departure of Con Murphy for Rome, that it was not the wish of the Irish Government to prevent peaceful action of any sort by the Irregulars least of all to prevent them putting their case before the Holy Father.

The Cardinal was evidently much perturbed at this exposé of the situation created by the interference of the Holy See, and he hastened to explain to the Minister that the action of the Holy See had been misinterpreted.

The Papal Benediction was not sent to Con MGR. LUZIO'S Murphy. It was understood in Rome that the elections VISIT were to be held in May and Mgr. Luzio's presence in Ireland was regarded by the Holy See as a means of aiding the Government to convince the people that the result of the elections should finally decide the controversy.

To complete his explanations the Minister informed the Cardinal of the visit of the Red Cross Delegates to Ireland; their inspection of the prisons: their excellent impression of the prisoners' treatment. With 10,000 prisoners on their hands the Irish Government could not allow the hunger-strike to be used as a means of obtaining release even if death supervened in some instances.

The Marquis here interrupted to impress on the Cardinal how pained and surprised the Irish people would be if the Holy See intervened on behalf of rebel strikers when no steps whatever had been taken on behalf of

Cardinal Gasparri did not admit that the Holy See had been indifferent to the case of the two Irishmen mentioned. Mr. Lloyd George at that time had made strong representations to the Vatican in order to get hungerstriking condemned, but the Pope refused to take action.

Before leaving the Minister impressed on the Cardinal how happy he was to find the Holy See so favorably disposed to the Government of the Irish Free State. He felt quite confident that henceforth similar painful incidents would not occur; that doubts would be solved by open and amicable communication. The President and the Ministers were now as always in the past devoted to the Holy See. The Irish Government would do all in its power to make the relations now begun ever closer and more cordial.

In the Records section, the Minister was received by Mgr. Ugolini, Cardinal Gasquet’s First Assistant Keeper of the Records.

Amongst other interesting MMS. Mgr. Ugolini showed to the Minister a series of Minutes of Papal Bulls addressed to Irish Bishops during the period immediately preceding the Anglo-Norman invasion.

The Minister informed Mr. Russell of the purport of his visit. Mr. Russell was extremely courteous and expressed his desire to help and facilitate the Minister in every way during his stay in Rome. He seemed amazed that it had been possible to arrange the interview with Cardinal Gasparri so soon after the Minister’s arrival.

During a short general discussion on Roman Affairs, he remarked that he had never come in contact with the Irish College Authorities but he hoped that with the with the new order of things amicable relations might be established.

The Minister having been introduced by the Marquis told the Cardinal that though his visit was very short and only semi-official he could not leave Rome without presenting his respects to the Cardinal and through him to the Sacred College. It was well known that the sympathies of the Cardinal were always strongly pro-Irish.

Cardinal Vanutelli replied that it gave him very very great satisfaction to meet a member of the Irish Government. He had indeed a great affection for Ireland and he almost considered himself an Irishman since he had been honoured with the freedom of her chief cities (Cork, Dublin, Drogheda). He would be delighted to inform his colleagues of the Minister's act of courtesy. He asked the Minister to convey his best wishes to the President and the Government.

After having inquired about the situation in Ireland, he told the Minister how desirous he was that a distinct branch of the Order should be founded in Ireland. Branches had already been established in France and England.

The Order is somewhat similar to that of St. John, but is exclusively Catholic.

In view of the impending change in the method of select- THURSDAY ing Bishops in Ireland, the Marquis, at the Minister's request interviewed the Brazilian and Portuguese Representatives for the purpose of finding out what system was in operation in their respective countries, neither of which has at present a concordat with the Holy See.

The Bishops are selected by the Nuncio resident in Rio and Lisbon without direct reference to either the local clergy or the Government.

Before recommending his choice to Rome, the Nuncio finds out unofficially whether the individual is a persona grata with the Government, but the wishes of the local clergy are completely ignored.

Audience with the Pope The Minister accompanied by the Marquis and followed by Messrs. Murphy and Walshe arrived at the Vatican. The party was ushered to the Throne Room, Military honours being given by the officers of the Guards in all the halls leading to the Pope's private study. Mgr. Confalonieri, the Maestro di Camera, conducted the Minister and the Marquis to the antecamera segreta (to which only Cardinals and personnages of high rank are admitted) to await the Audience.

After a few minutes they were led into the Pope's private study in which the Pope very rarely receives visitors.

When the Minister had kissed his ring the Pope invited him to sit in a chair placed immediately in front of his writing table.

The Holy Father spoke at length about the Irish MMS. in the Ambrosian Library of Milan (of which he had been Curator before coming to Rome) especially about the Antiphonarium of Bangor with its scoliae in old Irish. His study had made him familiar with the Irish characters in which these MMS. were written.

The Pope gave his Benediction to the four present and through them to their relatives and friends 'according to their intention'.

He had previously asked the Minister to convey his special blessing to the President and Ministers of the Government.

The Pope accompanied his visitors to the ante-camera segreta to examine a set of books which the Marquis had received for the new Irish section. He was particularly pleased to see the bound volumes of 'Hermathenae' presented by the Provost of Trinity College.

The Holy Father, with further good wishes to the Minister and his friends, bade Good-Bye.

Interview arranged by the Marquis with Signor Con- tarini, permanent Director of Foreign Affairs. Interview. The Minister was very cordially greeted by Sig. Contarini. The latter conveyed Sig. Mussolini's regrets to the Minister that his departure for Milan prevented him receiving the Minister personally. If the Minister remained a few days longer, Sig. Mussolini would be very gratified to have an opportunity of meeting him.

Signor Contarini inquired about the exact relations between the Irish and British Governments and expressed great pleasure on hearing from the Minister that the relations were amicable.

Signor Contarini hoped that it would soon be possible to have a trade convention with Ireland and that the most cordial relations would be established between Italy and Ireland.

The Minister left his card on the British Ambassador.