Mr. Matthews called on me today. He stayed from 10.40 to 12.15 p.m.

After the preliminaries the conversation drifted around to Ireland and I informed him of my conversations with Mr. Gordon Walker,¹ Mr. Tobin,² Mr. Harriman³ and Mr. MacArthur.⁴

I urged him to do what he could to get us the right to buy arms.

After some further conversation he asked me what was our attitude to NATO. I said that the last Government had taken the line, when NATO was proposed, that Article 4 might be held to imply that we were accepting the six counties as part of British territory; that we had accepted their stand and that there had been general approval for it in the country.

I adverted to our attitude in the last war, to Mr. de Valera’s statement of 1935, and to our fears of a German attack in 1940 and in 1944; to the fact that the British would give us no guarantee that they would not attack, but that we had staff talks with them against a German attack.⁵

I said that the last Government had allowed the Army to be reduced very greatly but that we had increased the pay and were doing our utmost to get recruits into the Army and FCA⁶ and to obtain arms for them wherever they were available, in Sweden, Belgium, etc.

I alluded to the internal difficulties during the last war and said that they might be somewhat greater in the next as the Communists and extreme Nationalists would join hands to take advantage of Britain’s difficulty and that perhaps a few more people would be in favour of our joining in Britain’s war. To date only the ‘Irish Times’ and Mr. Dillon⁷ had declared themselves in favour of the latter course and that they would have very little influence and the generality of the people would support the stand that had been taken.

I said that I feared very much for the future if the Western Powers were suddenly thrown into war and obtained a victory without exactly knowing before hand what type of world they were fighting for. I said that Britain had a mind of two parts one of which was given to the power politics approach to all her difficulties and with the other part she spoke of democratic principles. That this was very dangerous and had led to her great loss of prestige in Iran after rattling the sword with her airborne troops and naval units.

I pointed out that unless the world were to be dictated to after the next war by a single nation or group it is necessary that there should be common agreement on democratic principles and their application to national units.

Mr. Matthews said in the course of the conversation that the State Department in America was very pro-British. At another point he indicated that he came here knowing the mind in Washington and that he approved of our desire to get rid of Partition; that while we could not expect miracles he would do the best he could quietly.

I said that I thought that our approach was slightly different from the last Government in that we wanted to bring the question of Partition to a head quietly. That if we could only succeed in getting the two parties – Labour and Tories – in England to make a declaration that the unity of Ireland was a British interest that that particular idea would ferment in time and that Partition would quietly fade away.

I stressed the fact that there was a great difference in the six counties in the last thirty years and that it had resolved itself into a situation where there was a small group in power for thirty years who wanted to remain in power for another thirty: and that if they were given a hint that Britain did not believe it to be in her interest that Partition should continue they would open up lines of contact with us. I instanced as one of the changes in the situation the agreement over the Erne⁸ and the projected agreements regarding the Foyle⁹ and the GNR.¹⁰

I stressed the fact that there were many difficulties in the world which men regretted but could see no solution for them. In our particular case the solution was clear-cut and simple – a subordinate Parliament; transfer of powers from Westminster to an all-Ireland Parliament and compensation for the property of dissenters. Mr. Matthews said and I agreed with him that there would be very few to be compensated.

Mr. Matthews asked me had I met the American Ambassador in London¹¹ and said he would take an early opportunity of having a chat with him on the whole matter.