A Chara,
[Matter omitted]
On 11th inst. I paid a visit, at his request, to Mgr. Ceretti the Under
Secretary of State at the Vatican. (I had previously called on him quite informally as
he knows some of my people.) He received me very cordially and we had a
long conversation of which the following are the heads:-
- I started on the atrocities, plus the fact that all recent advices showed
the spirit of the people to be as strong and determined as ever in spite of
them. Told him there was no prospect of peace at present.
- He said Archbishop Clune's parleys seemed to suggest the contrary
- Replied this was not so and explained the Archbishop's
efforts.1
- He said what about Fr. O'Flanagan? Told him Fr. O'F. was most
popular Priest in Ireland but had acted without authority in approaching L. G. with
his telegrams. That effect had been bad because certain elements in British
Cabinet had made this overture an excuse for taking and making L.G. take a
more hostile line on the assumption that we were caving in.
-
He said Colonial Home Rule which the English were willing to give,
should settle the matter. I replied that compromise was out of the question and even
if we were willing to forego our National right the consequence would
be restarting the war under far less favourable conditions; because (a) we
should be bound by our settlement while (b) the English Viceroy would be
compelled by the traditionally bitter anti-Irish and anti-Catholic spirit in England
to attempt constantly to impose his veto with endless friction. Pointed
out difference between Australia 'children of the Mother country' and
ourselves, and that the only two cases where Colonial H.R. had been imposed on a
foreign race viz: French Canada and the Boers had proved bad failures.
He said the Bishops in June last year had left the impression in Rome
that, while demanding Independence, they were doing so out of policy only,
and would be well satisfied if Ireland got Colonial Home Rule. (I am told by
the Rector that this alleged impression is due to a piece of propaganda by
Cardinal Gasquet on the strength of a casual conversation with an Irish Prelate.)
- I said everywhere Jews and Masons were united against us in foreign
press on the side of England, that we are the most Catholic people with great
personal devotion to the Holy Father and so on, and that we expected the Pope to
be with us. He said they were often reproached with their silence but that
many Prelates in Rome were scandalised by our 'murders'. I said that was
English propaganda. Explained killings were either in armed conflict or by order
of competent Irish authority and instanced the case of twelve spies in
Dublin. Reminded him Irish Army almost all practising Catholics, many
daily Communicants, and that where one or two of the small minority of
Bishops who are not with us wanted to put into the unanimous declaration of
October a condemnation of our 'crimes', the other Bishops had absolutely
refused. Charges of assassination were therefore absurd and invented by England
for propaganda.
- Explained there is
really state of war. He said England called it
Rebellion, because we are subjects of the Empire, not internationally recognised. I
said England's statements were no answers to
facts and that we had learned from the Peace Conference that international recognition was found to be a
valueless standard. Explained we owed no allegiance and had never owed it to
England and that we were quite determined to finish the war this time.
- Told him terror was going to be much worse because L.G. had
transferred 'Irish Question' into an asset by filling English public opinion with hatred
of us, so that it would support him in any atrocities, while he had nothing to
fear from Europe crushed by the war:- L.G. more secure than ever. The only
power England fears is the Vatican and it should act, if only by asking all the
faithful to pray for Ireland or by ordering collection for Irish sufferers, as was done
for Poland in 1915. Cited the action of Cardinal Mercier and others. A
gesture from the Pope would be invaluable to us and would give pause to
England. He again said it would be difficult to satisfy some of the Prelates in Rome
that 'murder is not murder and arson arson', though he personally understood.
- He raised the question of Mannix and I said Pope could have ban
removed by a word of protest. He said Holy Father might do this after Archbp's. visit
to Rome but could not before.
- He also mentioned Bishop of Cork. I spoke strongly on this and on
that gentleman's erratic character, as shown by his public acts, his attack on
O'Rahilly etc. Told him the example was unlikely to be followed and that Dail had
taken no public action in the matter presumably because could not take Dr.
Coholan seriously. Told him we did not want any quarrel with the Church. On
the contrary relations vastly improved during recent years by splendid loyalty
of Clergy which had done much to dispel previously existing anti-clericalism and I paid warm tribute to the loyalty of the Church of late.
- After I had risen to go he volunteered that he would see if he could
arrange an interview for me with Cardinal Gasparri, Secretary of State.
The interview lasted half an hour, and on the next day, the 12th January,
I had a message from the Cardinal, Secretary of State and called on him and
saw him for about forty minutes. He was friendly but displayed less cordiality
than Monsignor Cerretti. We went over much the same ground. I told him
there would be no peace in present mood of the English Government and that
we were determined to make the fear of us in England greater than the hate manufactured by L.G. He queried whether we could make England
afraid. Told him we had no doubt of that. Cited hysterical examples of
English mentality (before the Zeppelins and in 1867).
He raised Colonial Home Rule as proper settlement. I explained why
we could not compromise. He said, anyway that would be a step and 'you
would be much stronger in four or five years time.'
I again dwelt on our strong claims upon the Vatican. He said they had
already spoken up in the Osservatore, but must condemn assassination. Told him
we wanted no more of that kind, repeated suggestions made to Mons. C.
and explained truth about the 'murders' and the present state of war.
He ended up by saying that, any way, the Bishops in June had asked the Vatican to keep
silence and that it had replied that was an easy request to comply with.
That is a summary of the two interviews. I am sorry I have no machine
to type it out. The salient points underlined
above as to the Bishops and Col. Home Rule and as to the Bishops and Vatican silence, would, I suggest, be
important for Dr. F.[ogarty] to know before the forthcoming meeting of Bishops and
I hope this will be in time. Obviously the position was quite different when
the Pope was asked in June last not to yield to English efforts to make him
speak against us, and the unanimous declaration marks a big step forward,
which the Vatican should take notice of. But England has gained ground here
since June. The 'murder' propaganda has been effective and every important
Prelate is convinced that Colonial Home Rule will satisfy us. I fear Archbishop
Clune, being Australian, is not the best man to bring the facts home as they are
to-day, to the Vatican. But I need say no more.
I may be too sanguine, but personally I believe the Vatican would
do something to show its affection if adequately informed and
pressed by ecclesiastical authority, not otherwise.
P.S. Dr. Amigo has arrived and Dr. Clune is expected
The former I have not yet seen, but he is reported to be a sturdy champion
of ours and would do good work at the Vatican. The Traveller reports that
the Vaterland articles which C.[hatterton] H.[ill] wanted spread broadcast are
not worth troubling about. I enclose a letter from Hill to Hamilton dated 4th
ult. On all these matters I shall be able to write you more fully two or three
weeks hence. Fr. Magennis is leaving in a couple of weeks. He will be a great
loss here. I think he is going to S. or N. America and will be away for some
six months. It is unnecessary to tell you what a tower of strength is Dr. Hagan
and the Irish atmosphere here among the Colony generally is wonderfully
good. Would you give enclosed stamp to the propaganda Dept. The idea is
worth considering.
